Parasocial Relationships, Social Media, & How Art Can Help Mental Health

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Margaret: [00:00:00] Hey, Preston. 

Preston: Hey, Margaret. How's it going? 

Margaret: It's good. Um, we have my first guest on the podcast this week. 

Preston: I know. I'm excited. This is like Margaret's first brainchild episode and she's really taking charge. 

Margaret: I am taking charge. I'm talking into the mic and I'm, I'm not pretending like I don't know how to open a podcast as I have done for the prior 10 episodes.

Preston: Right. I think it's getting easier. It is getting, it's always with the help of a little icebreaker. 

Margaret: Yes. So first let's, I guess let's introduce our guest. So Amelia, do you want to introduce yourself or should I? Ooh, I'm curious what you might say actually. Okay, well, I'm going to leave you to give your titles and your professional background.

Um, I met Amelia online, which is going to go into our icebreaker question of friends. You've started being friends online or parasocial and became friends offline off. [00:01:00] Apps in a less parasocial way. Um, so that is gonna be our icebreaker question and part of it is because that is how Amelia and I became friends.

Um, I started following you and I think I had like a thousand followers or something and you were posting as art therapy, IRL Uh, I was in my intern year of psych residency and. I've always been drawn abstractly to the idea of art therapy, but I never knew anyone who did it in medical school. There's an opposite.

There's, there's never no, there was maybe on child psych units. There were, but like only in passing. Access to art therapists, and you were just so good at talking about what you were doing in a really coherent way, how it might help people, but also not, not talking about it in a way that made it feel like you were being coercive or like it was like, this is the five things you have to do as an art therapist or else, or like, this is what my patients must do.

So I felt like it really towed this line that I've been interested in for a [00:02:00] long time. And as a trainee who is trying to figure out like what, what do therapists do, but also this place online of like giving access to information around mental health without doing kind of like squirmy ethical question, questionable things.

Preston: Or just flagrant clickbait, which is what a lot of people fall into. 

Margaret: Yeah. Yeah. Like me. So, um, , no. 

Preston: In the Nona catastrophe thena world. 

Margaret: So you are an art therapist and you're also on here at, with your new book, which I have gotten to read that we are gonna talk about. Um, but I wonder if you wanna introduce yourself a little more and I think you should.

I always think people should use all the professional titles they have. 'cause when do we get to actually say them? You worked hard for them, so I think you should. 

Amelia Knott: Oh, thanks, Margaret. I'm resisting the urge to dive into so many of the little breadcrumbs you just left in that intro, but I'll start with the, the business y bits.

I'm Amelia Knott. I'm a registered psychotherapist, uh, art therapist, I [00:03:00] guess, author and content creator. I feel kind of funny when I say that and include that in, in the title or the description of who I am and what I do, but that is a good portion. What's weird about being a psychotherapist? A lot.

Preston: Yeah, no, I, I feel similarly, like I've always been kind of cagey around like the content creator influencer term. 

Margaret: Until I invited you to your, your first panel talk. And I said, you're an expert. 

Preston: Yeah. And now how did you introduce yourself? I am an influencer. Which talk? I think I'm actually still beat around the bush a lot.

I'm like, Oh, I'm Preston. I like make videos. I think I even did that today. Today? Right now? Yeah. Yeah. When I was first, so, um, to the audience behind the scenes, when I was introducing myself to Amelia, I was like, still hesitant to use like the content creator term. It's interesting how we can be like averse to this title.

Amelia Knott: Which is so funny because like before we even set up this conversation, like I followed you. I have a parasocial relationship with you, [00:04:00] Preston, that proceeds. Any of us organizing this conversation. I don't know. I'm really curious about where that internal it comes from. Maybe it's because one title feels so hard one or academic or I'm using air quotes like respectable in one way and we see another kind of work is not.

being worthy of the same kind of clout or respect. I don't know. There's a lot to untangle there that I don't, I don't agree with the way I just described that. I think, you know, it's a really valid kind of work to communicate in this way. But I, yeah, I just, I share that, like, I feel weird calling myself a content creator.

Preston: Yeah. I think we treat it as a catch all term, but content creator has been a eons old profession. Like, can you imagine calling Mark Twain, like a content creator? Like he's, he's functionally an author. Right. But like, At the time, the 1800s, he's like, yeah, I make content. Oh, what kind of content are you, bro?

Like, more like literature [00:05:00] and like stories and stuff. Oh, sick. Well, 

Margaret: that's it, book talk. 

Preston: Yeah, but we've adopted content to be any form of like artistic expression in the media. Yeah. And then for some reason, we've made that, the respect beholden to like the lowest common denominator, which can be people that make.

Maybe content that we despise or would be embarrassed to be associated with, but it also includes the most genuine content and anyone who's creating very thoughtful and thought and poignant things. 

Margaret: I mean, does that mean that people who publish and like nature are. And just science content creators, 

Preston: I'm going to get like, I 

Margaret: make, I'm a science influencer.

Um, okay. We need more of that. That's actually part of what we're going to talk about today with your book, which I want to show here, which is the art of thriving online for anyone listening or watching this. I, this is one of my most excited books to [00:06:00] get for You know, next year, I got it early from you, um, and have been diving into it.

But before we, I guess, go into that, I think a really great topical part of this icebreaker of Kind of your guys experiences with like either a friendship or something where like a relationship that was just sort of one way or didn't have a lot of sort of threads in between it that might make it quote unquote real that became more real over time.

You guys have both know and I think Preston and I have talked about how we met so I know mine with both of you. Um, But I'm curious what that brings up, or kind of community that became more real community, and Amelia, you talk about this in the book, um, that started out as just maybe observing someone's content they were creating.

Amelia Knott: Ooh, can I give an example that felt Kind of bad for me, or made me realize that there was kind of a chasm between the intimacy I was experiencing and what was actually real. I mean, I have other examples of [00:07:00] meeting someone like you online and then developing a relationship and an intimacy that felt more and more like my in person friendships, but I have this other memory of, uh, there's an artist and a writer that I've been A big fan of and followed since the early days of Instagram.

And one time I was

Margaret: Love his stuff. Love his online course. He sells. 

Amelia Knott: Yeah. So I was on this road trip through California where this artist had a studio and had said online, like, you know, my studio and shop is open by, by appointment. And so emails got in touch, stopped by. And then had this really intense moment of, like, standing in front of this person who I idolized in a lot of ways and feeling really uncomfortable.

Like, yes, there had been this open invitation to come to this space that was, in theory, open to community, but I also felt like I was invading and kind of [00:08:00] Stepping into the personal space of someone who I felt a closeness with because I'd read their books and followed them for so many years. But then, like, I was this complete stranger.

I felt really uncomfortable noticing just, like, the impact that that parasocial relationship had had on me and how it was really one sided. Yeah. Yeah. I 

Preston: like it. Was that like your don't meet your heroes moment for you? 

Margaret: Totally. It was exactly like that. Yeah. But it's interesting how, and maybe some things you're leaving unsaid, but like that there's an element of the, like, feeling like dislocated when you actually meet the real person that the, the, the kind of like, maybe like, it's, it's not uncanny valley, but kind of the sense of like this person coming off your screen and suddenly being real in a lot of ways that are like online projections didn't it.

Yeah. Didn't match it. And then that just that just being kind of disorienting. [00:09:00] Um, and I could imagine that that's why I won't meet Preston in real life. 

Preston: Just kidding. You know, I try. You just 

Margaret: try. You do try 

Preston: to keep it parasocial, 

Margaret: but it's interesting. And you're, but you're saying like, there's kind of just like the, it feeling off because it was someone different than what was maybe present in your.

parasocial attachment. 

Preston: And it sounds like also there's this part of realizing from the expression on their face that they didn't see you with the same intimacy and knowledge that you could see them. 

Amelia Knott: That was the uncomfortable part of feeling their, not disinterest, but like, wow, this is unbalanced. And, or it just, it didn't match.

The, the grandness I built in my head, and this is why I think something that's a part of my intake process with with clinical clients is just naming that, like, if a client is coming to me, having potentially formed a relationship with me already on social media, and we've got a name from the [00:10:00] beginning, like, hey, this might not backsight, Align with, uh, the version of me that you've seen online.

We get to co create a brand new kind of relationship here that really focuses on you. But there also might be some recalibrating of. Like what you expected this to be and it might feel different and that might feel weird too. Yeah. 

Preston: Yeah You have to create pliable expectations from the beginning about you, which is unique because I think a lot of times people go in and they're only forming expectations from like the walk from the waiting room to the Office as they get this impression of you Very rarely will someone have this whole built up narrative of who their therapist is before they walk in.

I have yet to have that with a patient. Um, I'm usually recognized by, like, other therapists in the building. So, the other day, actually, someone's patient recognized me, but they were going to, like, an intake with somebody else. They were like, oh, that's Preston. And I was like, [00:11:00] having a therapy session. And then, and my patient was like, What was that about?

I was like, ah, don't worry about it. 

[music]: Don't worry about it. It 

Preston: was really interesting. And I like that you name it. I feel like any, it's so funny, like, it's such an easy cheat code that anytime you're worried about some kind of awkward or or factor invading the therapeutic space, all you have to do is just name it and then all of a sudden it becomes something to work through with them.

Yeah. 

Margaret: I think one of the positive parts of it though, and this is like the mixed bag that all of this is, that we'll get into too, is I think all three of us, I, to both of you, we've talked about kind of like how breaking down the expectation that, um, folks rightfully and understandably have of the profession as a whole.

Um, and what, who is the person who's going to be sitting across from me and do I want to talk to them about what's going on and what's hard or maybe I feel shame about in my life. And [00:12:00] I can imagine like, there's the specific of who you are and the parasocial connection to that. Then there's also this broader narrative that maybe them coming to you is like, Oh no, I know that you You know, you, you made this joke that I didn't realize therapists could talk in that way, or like, you identify like this, and I didn't think a therapist or a psychiatrist could be that.

Amelia Knott: Right. I think there's a much different level of alignment. I've noticed, say, moving from being in an agency and receiving referrals for clients to moving into private practice, where Virtually all my clients find me on social media. There's a huge difference between the kind of the buy in, first of all, in me explaining the modality of art therapy, right?

People are Therapy Coming to work with me because they know something about art therapy or have just learned about it and are really interested and have a sense that it's the right modality for them versus me kind of needing to do some of that psychoeducation up front and to sell a little bit to sell it right [00:13:00] and then also just in terms of personality and communication like this is the positive side of the parasocial relationship.

There's already some built in trust if that person has followed you for a while resonated with. Your political stance or just the way you communicate, right? I feel like the trust builds a little bit faster when that's how relationships start. 

Preston: It's like you've pre screened who could be a good candidate for you.

Or at least from their perspective. Because I think a lot of therapeutic relationships are the first few sessions, figure out if this is a good fit or not. 

Amelia Knott: Right. Right. 

Preston: And it sounds like at least these patients think that it's going to be a good fit by the time they show up at your door. 

Amelia Knott: Mm 

Margaret: hmm. Mm hmm.

Exactly. I wonder, too, to go to what you were saying of, like, something feeling more real versus not, um, I love this question. And anytime someone brings this up, I get annoying and talk about a lot, like, in our, in my clinic and residency, [00:14:00] and I wonder what you make before we dive a little bit more into the larger questions of the book itself.

What makes a relationship more like real versus less real? And if we want to take it out of, like, valid, like, maybe more whole more. Connected. Um, I think we can all agree. You can have relationships in the material world that are less connected, right? That's not a thing that only exists online. Um, but you mentioned like, that there are people, you know, who you've met online, like it are like, you know, friendship, um, that became more real.

And I wonder for you, how you would describe what makes something more less real, less parasocial, more, we're two people who know each other, not two images, you know, projecting into each other. 

Amelia Knott: Oh, I think that's such an important question. Especially as our lives move increasingly online, and I say this in the book, the phrase in real life feels kind of problematic to me.

I mean, [00:15:00] it actually like my whole business name is kind of this tongue in cheek. Like, what is in real life even mean in this day and age? I have trouble thinking about my real friends or my real life as being separate. from my digital life because they're so entwined. And like, I have experiences like meeting someone like you, where perhaps for the first kind of months or weeks of back and forth, there was just like an affinity or like, Oh yeah, this person resonates or we're sharing some ideas.

But then we had that zoom call and it must've been two years ago, but suddenly there was this, this reciprocity. And Like, I still have this really embodied sense of like, wow, that person really, really got it. And I felt really seen. Me too. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Margaret: And reading your book, it was part of like our conversation.

I know you were thinking about it and starting to write at that time. And so it was really cool to see it pull [00:16:00] out, but yeah, that sent, I had the exact, I had the same experience as you of like, now you're a person, but that was all still online. I mean, or it was faced or was like a zoom, um, Yeah, and so there's something about I don't know if there's good words for this 

Preston: It's like a criticism on the medium through which we communicate as to like delineating real versus fake Well, that's how I think people casually do it These are my virtual friends my real friends But you can have a more genuine emotional connection with a virtual person than you do with a real quote unquote real proximity friend But this is a dumb not necessary dumb quote, but I was watching the show industry the other day And it's like, it's like the British succession.

Anyways, this guy's sitting in an elevator and he's talking to someone about their family and he said, there's honestly not a lonelier place than being in the room with people who are supposed to love you or supposed to know who you are. And I think about that, like, too, like how, how [00:17:00] fake are these, how fake are these relationships of people who are my family or like live in the room next to me?

Yet my real relationship is ones and zeros on a screen. 

Margaret: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. It makes me think of like all the spaces in between, like an influencer you follow who you've never had a one on one conversation with and who is like, maybe does a lot of, it seems like a less vulnerable account, whatever that means, which you also talk about in the book, which I love.

But to. Me having a FaceTime with my, like, nephews who are one and a half year old while I cook dinner and they eat dinner and they, like, practice the newest words they've, um, learned how to say, like, that feels real, like, this delineation of real, not real is, is not quite complex enough and I, I think we all think, all three of us think that, but clinically and kind of the, like, talking points and Amelia and I have talked about this before around, like, How we help people with like their screen time [00:18:00] and their understanding of themselves and social media is often, especially when we're talking about like kids, young adults, just like it's bad, just get out in the real world and off your phones and like.

Shakes, F Cloud, but , it's a really complex question of what is real, what is not real, and what's meaningful to each person or even patient or client we see. 

Amelia Knott: And I think it can be minimizing to, to tell somebody that, hey, this portion of your life that maybe I don't have or is not somewhere I spend, my energy isn't real or legitimate.

Right? Like let's imagine you are a trans teenager. Somewhere in the country where it's not safe to be honest with your family, it's not safe to be honest with teachers, but Reddit and Tiktok are places where you can be connected with other people or start to have those conversations or even just hear other people sharing their life experience.

Those relationships might feel [00:19:00] more real than who you have to mask as or show up as in in your daily in person life. It would be so invalidating to tell that person who. Yeah, that's fake or that the way you're trying to get the need of belonging met, which is a basic need, isn't legitimate. So turn to this community or turn to this place that doesn't accept you, that isn't safe for you, right?

Preston: On the basis that it has proximity to you. 

Amelia Knott: Exactly. 

Preston: And, and nothing else. It, it makes me think of this, um, story I saw. There's this kid who, he was disabled and died of cancer, and his parents found that he actually had this blossoming Minecraft, or not Minecraft, World of Warcraft community. 

[music]: Mm hmm. And 

Preston: so, they only found out about this because after he had passed, they received like hundreds of emails from beloved players that like cherished him as a member of their virtual community, but he had real impacts on their lives.

Mm hmm. And hope [00:20:00] for them to reach out. So they, they saw their son as having this like isolated detached life and then found out that he had this, he was a beloved member of this rich community. All took place online. 

Margaret: I think a big book a lot of people are talking about right now is Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, um, which is sort of another one of these books of like how social media is like the bane of existence and anxiety, blah, blah, blah, and how it makes them less sociable.

But then there's all of these situations where it's like you're not comparing. It's comparing, like, a child who feels safe and has all these resources and even in that case, but it's like, okay, if a child was going to be home in their bedroom at 9 p. m. on a Tuesday night in the 90s versus now, is that, like, and now they can text their friends at 9 p.

m., like, that's just treated all as one thing as though, like, People would be out socializing 24 7 if it weren't for these phones, but it's like, well, what if it's just like a boring weekday night and [00:21:00] you would have just been like playing Nintendo? Like, is it, couldn't you be working on just a different language of social skills at that point?

Amelia Knott: I mean, it's also the teens aren't preparing to enter a world where that is the tool that mediates our relationships, right? Yeah. 

Preston: Have you seen a photo of like A subway car in like the 1910s and everyone's just reading the newspaper and not a single person's talking to each other. And but then you see the same thing today where people are on their phones and they're like shaking their fists are like, ah, no one interacts like they used to.

And you're like, dude, a hundred years ago, people were just as stoic. They were just, they were reading something else. 

Margaret: I feel like people don't give each other the plague like they used. Wow, that's not true. If no one's ever wanted to, 

Amelia Knott: to be social in their morning commute, that's, that's universal. No one's wanted that.

Preston: It's always been a thing. Like, even if it was like back on like the boat in Roman times, I'd probably just be like reading the bark on the back of the tree, like, Oh, like, look at that. I just don't want to make small talk right now. Well, to assume you'd be in a [00:22:00] social class that knew how to read. Very bold.

Margaret: Very bold. 

Preston: I would just be twiddling my thumbs with the twine of the rope or something. 

Margaret: Um, yeah. Well, okay. There's a thousand things we could talk about, and this is very reminiscent, precedent of me and Emilio's Zoom conversation, where I think we just talked for two hours, like pinging back and forth. Um, I guess to ground us a little bit, I would love to ask you kind of, How did the book come about again, the book being the art of thriving online, creative exercises to help you stay grounded and feel joy in the world of social media.

And I say that not just to put the name out there, but because I love the title and the subtext. Um, how did the book come about and. You know, how would you describe the book, um, to someone who you felt like was struggling with how to change their relationship to their screen use, especially right now? I know you're in Canada.

Um, I'm in Boston. Preston is in Texas. God bless him. Uh, [00:23:00] but winter, right? Like, I think this is a time and you and I, yeah, we, I've been writing a lot about this online too, is a time where I think a lot of people are like, I don't want to be on my phone all the time, but it's also cold and dark outside. And.

Um, yeah, just how the book came about and how you would recommend it or what you would say to someone who might be. Loki, I need your book to fix my relationship with my phone. Thank you. I need to fix my relationship. But no, I 

Amelia Knott: think you're spot on. And truthfully, if I could be cheeky about it, it's because I was getting so frustrated reading self help books by tech bros who would like already made their millions developing the apps I was now addicted to and had the gall to say, you just got to have better willpower and here's knock it off.

It's 

Preston: your fault. Have you ever considered that it's your 

Margaret: fault? Have you thought about trying off for them? I'll be 15, please.

You know what, I'm looking directly [00:24:00] into the sun at 5. 30am. 

Amelia Knott: Like if someone tells me to habit stack one more time, it's just not going to work for me. Or 

Preston: this weird like ritualistic imitation where they're like, Jeff Bezos takes two poops before 7. 30am. I'm on my way to be the next billionaire. They may not be related.

Margaret: You just have to say it in the right tone, like, like there's like definitely a rhythm and intonation that is the like, this CEO gets up at 3 a. m. every day while you're lazy ass like if you cared about your life. 

Preston: You won't believe what 40 percent of high school dropouts do. It's not become CEOs, but 40 percent of CEOs are high school dropouts.

Margaret: But Michael 

Amelia Knott: Jordan didn't make the basketball team. But it's that self help rhetoric, right? 

Preston: Yeah, it is. 

Amelia Knott: It's so frustrating. And I think it was mostly born out of, yeah, this frustration with the, the format that so many self help books [00:25:00] take where it's like, here's a blog post that could be just a blog post.

Margaret: I mean, if books could kill. Exactly. 

Amelia Knott: Exactly. And Yeah. Yeah. Then there's this like very regimented 10 step plan for how you'll fix yourself and oh my goodness, if you can't follow the plan, then it was your fault all along and I just, I don't buy it. I mean, as a neurodivergent person, consistency has never been a gift of mine, right?

I'm, I'm good at developing a strategy, but sticking to it is a whole other, whole other question. And when it came to like reckoning with. Feeling like my own relationship with social media was problematic. The typical self help playbook wasn't doing anything for me and felt really frustrating to have these cycles of, okay, I'm going to block myself out of social media until 9am every day.

And then I'm going to get up and do the Pilates and do the this or like, [00:26:00] I'm 

Margaret: going to winter arc so hard. 

Preston: I've felt that strategy too. And it feels like the equivalent of when you, you say to someone like, Hey, I didn't like that comment you made. And you're like, I guess I'll never talk. You know, it's like, it's like, Oh, I don't like how I scroll too much in the evening.

Guess I'll never use my phone ever again. Yeah. 

Margaret: I feel like that's the other thing. And what I like in your book a lot is, which makes sense given the work you do, a lot of times there's such a negative, like, pathologizing of the emotions that lead someone to be liable, to be kind of caught up in the attention.

economy that is engineered to keep people caught. It's kind of like how with alcohol we used to kind of act like, oh, alcohol is fine for everyone. You just have a particularly messed up moral compass or genetics or something's broken about you. And we used to talk about substance. I mean, some people still do talk about substance that way, but rather than, oh, this is maybe like an addictive thing and here's what [00:27:00] it's drawing on and here's where it's useful though.

Similar to maybe things like not everyone. I'm not going to go into the, this metaphor ends there, but like the, the, the books are always like, look at how unproductive you are because of this. If you just would work harder like this, me and my, you know, five engineering bros, then you wouldn't have this like flaw in you, this fatal flaw that makes you bad and not productive.

And here's this new app that will solve the problem. Yes, here's a new app. Here's my protocol for it. 

Preston: It's really, it's an approach of problems of the soul with an engineering mindset, I think. 

Margaret: I like that. 

Preston: And like, they're engineers, so they're going to solve it with a 10 step plan. But these, these are issues with the psyche.

Amelia Knott: Yeah. Yeah, wow, that's, that's exactly it. And I think because I'm an art therapist and an artist first, I know of no better way [00:28:00] to grapple with something challenging than to take it out of the realm of language and into a space where I don't need to use the cognitive or analytical side of my brain. Like if something is challenging to put into words or challenging to make sense of, then I want to use a medium that is more expansive than language to sort out how I'm feeling, not necessarily fix myself.

Right. 

Preston: I 

Amelia Knott: mean, words, words are brilliant. I love words. I'm a writer. And also, I think so many of us run into this trap where we know what we know, and it's hard to discover something new about ourselves when we're using, yeah, a tool that has very pointed meaning and You know, the philosophy of art therapy is that you can step out of that side of your brain and into something expressive, something that has the capacity to surprise you and help you perhaps discover something new about yourself or your [00:29:00] experience.

So I wanted to make something, make a resource that first of all, introduced some of that philosophy of art therapy, and then see, tried to see if we could use that to also hold this relationship with technology that, I mean, I haven't really found other resources that aren't just the 10 step plan for fixing your discipline.

I think this conversation is so much more complicated than willpower. It's about, I mean, how capitalism works. It's about the, the tech industry and the power of, you know, living in Silicon Valley. It's about the fact that The very nature of what it means to be real, you know, as we were saying before, is changing before our eyes.

So, again, something that is tangible, like drawing, like painting, like collaging, I think can bring us back into the here and now to grapple with something in. [00:30:00] In a different way and make sense of it in a different way. 

Preston: Yeah, and I think it's really fascinating to me that we have this industry that's pretty much been curated or programs to separate us from our attention in an amazing way, like ways that we didn't think technology could do is it's perceiving your attention and finding ways to spend make you spend longer on your phone.

And then the recommended solution that is to just fix your willpower when you have like, like everything in the marketplace is being pinned against you. So, yeah, I've, I've similarly found that frustration. I think 

Margaret: part of this is how I think, like Amelia and I originally connected as both know, my TikTok name is bad art every day, but there is definitely like a kindred kind of sense of, I'm obviously not an art therapist, but like how this creativity and kind of moving outside of how we usually relate can be something really [00:31:00] powerful and good for people.

And I think meaningful and. what you're saying, right? Like, not just in your training as an art therapist, but also like, you're saying in the form of this book, but it's a workbook and it's not just a workbook, but like, write down your five bad thoughts about your screen use, right? It's like, very interactive, very like, Pick it up.

I like that. There's like the first page is like, tear this page out. So you're not afraid of messing up this book. I love that. Um, or mess up this page, whatever, uh, that the, the form of the antidote matters in the same way that the form of the problem takes. So that like, if we have a problem where we're sort of Pulling away from our bodies or avoiding sensations in our bodies, which I think is a core issue actually present in some people's screen use like it's engineered to do that and that colludes with our desire to understandably move away from anxiety, pain, uncertainty, difficult, like really hard things happening in the world, um, [00:32:00] but that separates from our emotions.

It increases our anxiety because it's just like unprocessed emotions. And so. that form of disembodied kind of distraction. I think it makes so much sense that the antidote would be reconnecting, slowing down and having it be embodied in a way that is not only talking, but is using your hands is noticing the smell of paint is kind of this mindful reintegration of these parts.

So I like love the form of this as well. It'll take longer for people. That's like, I think the other thing is like. Even me looking at it, I was like, Oh, this is going to mean I can't just read this and then move on to the next thing. But that's why a lot of the other books I've read haven't worked because they didn't ask anything of me.

I just. tried to absorb a strategy, right? Whereas your book asks something of its reader, which I think is why it makes me hopeful. 

Amelia Knott: And I think, I mean, hopefully sets people up to, to discover something really useful. You know, I think the other thing to add on to what you're saying is we [00:33:00] use this tool every day that also separates us from our ability to choose and our autonomy and shapes the way we think and What we perceive to be as true, there's something really important and empowering about not just being told what the solution could be, but discovering what your personal definition of wellness could mean.

I can't tell somebody what that is. I have my own definition, but it's so much more impactful for someone. to author their own definition of, of well being than it is to be told what it is or what it should look like. Like I think about something a clinical supervisor of mine said that, yeah, it's just stayed with me through my entire practice.

And that's don't steal the revelations. Right? It can be tempting to jump in and offer an insight or it's like, Ooh, I'm seeing this or to, to offer and jump ahead of, of what someone might be working out in their brain. But it's [00:34:00] so much more impactful when someone has that light bulb moment or notices something about the way they're drawing something or a theme that's coming through.

When it comes from your own hand, your own mind, it's so much more likely to stick and feel like something. Yeah. That wasn't just a band aid solution on a problem, 

Preston: it is, it is so much harder to guide someone to that conclusion than it is to just try to say it to, I found, like, I'll be frustrated in, like, how to word something or how to, how to nudge someone along to reset.

And for me, the reflexes are, it's easier on my end as a therapist to just say, like, Oh, this is what I'm seeing. 

Margaret: Yeah, I'm, I'm in a psychoanalytic fellowship right now, which I think. In modern therapy, I actually think psychoanalysis has become radical again and that there's more room for exploration and in some ways I think actually embodiment because it's like, come in the room.

I'm not going to teach you any like tools or like [00:35:00] tricks or anything, right? I'm going to, in some ways similar to art therapy, create a space where we're going to explore something, but then I don't have any idea in mind of where we need to go next. And then in authentically creating something together, That when we really connect with the salient kind of emotion underneath creates that interpersonal field and allows for exploration, which I think art therapy can give people who struggle with that for a number of reasons, a way to have some of that exploration in a way that feels safer if interpersonally.

that doesn't feel possible yet. 

Amelia Knott: Oh, my gosh. You're describing why art therapy can be valuable like so simply. And I think, I mean, in this day and age, if you're a person on social media, then there's no shortage of hacks and tricks, right? You've probably seen every one the algorithm has to offer. I've tried some of them myself, right?

And like, what is invaluable? I mean, speaking of real versus not [00:36:00] real is a therapeutic relationship that isn't driven by an outcome that somebody else has prescribed for you. And in art therapy, if like approaching that relationship is intense, as it often is for, for a lot of reasons, whether it's our trauma background or neurodivergence, like there's this, this third presence, uh, and there's therapy where instead of it being therapist client, it's Triangulated, it's therapist, client, and then the artwork is this third presence.

So in moments where it's really intense to be sitting in, you know, whatever memory was just shared or whatever question was just asked, we turn back to the art and see what it has to say. And oftentimes that's where the surprise and that's where like the unconscious comes through. And I can't control where it goes.

I can't even interpret the art, right? What something means. It's not for me to say as a therapist, it's for the artist. 

Margaret: Yeah. [00:37:00] There was an article I recently read one of the old Winnicott papers that was like, I shudder to think of how many patients I have like gotten in the way of because I had to interpret that.

And it's, it's very humbling and also very, very exciting to kind of read that he wrote. He wrote that, you know, 20, 30 years into his career, I think. Exactly what you're saying of, I think it makes the job even more interesting for us also that and it makes us hold less of that emotional burden if it becomes like we truly are co creating.

I have a set of skills to help facilitate the space, but we're going somewhere together that neither of us really knows. And in that we're both a little bit vulnerable. 

Amelia Knott: Um, and I think this is a giant misconception about art therapy is that the therapist just sitting there with their clipboard and sees the house, like, Ooh, four windows, Oof, right?

I have no idea what [00:38:00] something means, what a color means, what a symbol means. And in fact, like I'll go as far to not even say something about the dog if the person hasn't identified it as a dog, right? That's, I think, a really important where, uh, way of. Sharing the power and being truly client centered in art therapy is that the person knows that any meaning, any metaphor is coming from them.

There's no, like, secret bank of symbols and meaning hidden in the back of my head. Yeah, and there's a 

Margaret: freedom to that, I think. Um, this I think we're at the point where we need to take a little bit of a break. When we come back from the break, we'll talk about something that I've wanted to talk about both of you together in the same virtual room, which is the ethics of being a therapist online, but also the personal part of being someone who is putting yourself online and therefore the gaze that you start putting on yourself and your life, um, [00:39:00] as a performance.

So we will talk about that when we're back.

Alright, so now that we're back, I think something I would love to explore with both of you guys is. I think let's actually start with this idea and I'm curious for both of you because you're both forward facing. Um, and I think you both have had a larger following than I've experienced for like a while now over the last couple of years and you both talk to the camera, which I don't.

And so I just wonder if you might speak to, and Amelia, you write about this in the book, how the, you know, when you're offline, how the gaze of the camera or how you frame your life, what your experience has been impressed in your experience with this of times, maybe where it felt like your online life got in the way of your, your real life, or it was crossing boundaries.

You didn't want it to [00:40:00] anymore.

Amelia Knott: I'm curious to hear from Preston first, because you have the biggest following about, out of all of us, like, what has it been like for you, the differentiation between your online life and offline life as more and more eyeballs are on you on a daily basis? 

Preston: So, um, there was this one time I was going to see a consult in the ED.

And I'm like, kind of just like meandering through the emergency department as one does. And I think I walked past someone who recognized me. And I, as I go over into this, like, final pod, they followed me for like 100 meters or so. They were just kind of like, like, is that him? And then they kind of walked down the hallway.

And then they, they rounded the corner and said, Hey, are you that guy from TikTok? And I was like, uh, yeah. And he was like, Oh, that's so cool. And then he like turned to the nurse's station was like, this is that guy who's famous on TikTok. And then all the nurses, a few of the nurses recognized me and then the ones who didn't, they all started like pulling [00:41:00] out their phones and it kind of turned into this like, whole gaggle and like, people were asking questions from different directions and I remember getting like, very uncomfortable and like, like going from like, being this like, quiet consultant who was just going to go like, see my patient leave to now like, the center of attention at like, 2 in the morning on like, kind of just like a long day and.

I hated it. Like, I, I just said, like, I remember, like, smiling and be like, I'm just gonna go see this patient now. And then I kind of, like, almost, like, ran away and then went to go, like, hide in the patient room. And luckily, I couldn't have an excuse to have a long interview with someone. And I remember hearing one of them say, like, Oh, you scared him away or all these things.

And I, I, like, had pictured this moment happening, like, when people, like, a lot of people recognize me in, like, one setting. But, I hated it. I didn't think about it like impeding my desire to like, go see a patient or to like dread going into a certain place, which was, [00:42:00] was kind of strange. And I guess it really like solidified for me that, like, what I do is, is real.

And I never thought it wasn't real, but like we were talking about before, it was like, I have my virtual setting and all the things I do on my phone, and then I go back to real life and they kind of interchange. And then here I had this moment where they totally intersected. And then my desire to do my job was now like getting affected by it.

So I think that was probably the most like negative scenario. All the other times have been recognized have been pretty positive. Except for one, um, where, and this wasn't necessarily negative, but it was like a reminder of how vulnerable I am online reflects in vulnerability in real life, I guess. So one time I was like on an elevator at like five in the morning and someone like turns to me and this is usually how it goes.

They're like, do I know you from somewhere? Like, do I recognize you? And then I'm like, I just say, like, I have a pretty generic face, which I do, like, even in med school, like, they thought, like, I looked like an anesthesiologist, so I get thanked for great [00:43:00] anesthesia work all the time. So usually that line works okay, but then they were like, oh no, you're that guy from online.

And then the next thing out of her mouth was you take antidepressants and I was like, all right, like out of all of the videos, like out of all the content I made, like, why did you have to go and bring that up? You're like, I got 

Margaret: those ciggy caps, baby. And then she 

Preston: just left the elevator and I was like, well, like.

I kind of, I kind of this moment myself, I was like, well, Preston, like you, you tell the camera, like, what do you expect? Like, what did you expect people to not see that? You know? And I think it was just like very much thrown in my face. Like, Hey, if you, if you're vulnerable, it's going to like, come back to you.

And like, those are all still things that exist. And I knew it in the moment. And I was, I think I was trying to prepare myself for it, but it, I don't think anything really prepares you for like that kind of interaction, I guess. No. 

Amelia Knott: No. When you've realized that. What feels safe or comfortable or like an empowering kind of vulnerability online [00:44:00] has a different impact when someone views it through a screen who maybe doesn't know you versus, oh, this person is walking into my care or this is my calling who now knows what kinds of medications I'm on or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think the experience I've had that really felt like the clashing of worlds, I mean, I've never been recognized, my platform's not that big, and I do talk with clients about the fact that like, if you follow me online, you might see things that wouldn't normally come up in a session, and that can feel weird, right?

You might feel weird. learn things about me or my personal life that you wouldn't normally learn about a therapist. And I mean, along with that, I also try and ask myself the question, you know, is this piece of information I'm sharing likely to cause transference in a negative way in my client relationships, which is interesting to think about my caseload versus my audience, right?

I mean, anyways, I digress, but I've tried to be really [00:45:00] careful with only showing parts of my personal life that feel related to the field of art therapy or kind of in line with, with my work. And there was one time I, I shared a video about some kind of collaborative art project I was making with my friends at my engagement party.

And I remember a little while later a client mentioned having seen it and the impact that it had. And I thought, oh my gosh, I thought I was being so careful. Like, I thought I was doing a really good job of keeping those realms separate and it's still coming into the therapy room. So that, it's a hard place to know because social media, especially if we're facing the camera, asks us to commodify like every minute part of our lifestyle.

I mean, I think women face this disproportionately as well. Like, you can't post a video about anything [00:46:00] without someone wanting to know what. You know, the brand of lip gloss you just put on is or where you got your glasses from, right? Yeah, but it's, it's tough to. To show up on a space where there's an expectation that your vulnerability is, is your social currency.

Yeah, it's, it's a thing that I am constantly grappling with. And I think most of us in health professions haven't had training from people who had to navigate that themselves were as this generation of online therapists and clinicians needing to invent the rules as we go and figure out what digital ethics means in this day and age.

Preston: Now, also, it affects your relationship with vulnerability, 

Amelia Knott: because 

Preston: now it's like, when you, when you, when you have a good reflective thought, you're like, Oh, I could sell this. Yes. You know, not necessarily consciously, but you're like, Oh, this is like, this is a good chance for me to be vulnerable in front of the camera.

I think like, [00:47:00] I've definitely had moments where I have, I have things like that. I'm like, I just don't want to like, I don't want to share this. And like, I know it's something that like, I've been vulnerable about before, like would be good content, but it's just. It doesn't feel right and then I almost like want to reclaim that, like.

There are some parts of, like, this character that is Preston that I don't want to display. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 

Amelia Knott: Yeah. I think that's really important. Like, there's, there's a part in the book about deliberately not telling my own trauma story online, and it's for exactly the reasons you say, Preston. Like, I'm, first of all, afraid to be pigeonholed into the story of, oh, the girl that bad thing happened to, right?

Like, I'm, I'm terrified of, Being recognized in person and someone saying, oh, that thing that happened to you as a kid, like, I don't want to have that conversation with a stranger, right? Or have people come to expect only content or storytelling that relies on me reliving [00:48:00] a certain trauma that I've experienced.

Margaret: It's also the, like, what goes viral and then what your audience expects from you, um, which is, I think, a part of this sort of, you know. Expectations of the larger culture, but also that people follow or someone does a series that is like at a certain point where this particular subset of your life feels.

Possible to share and it feels like good vulnerability and then things change or you don't want to keep sharing in that way or that part is over. But then these people followed you from these viral videos that I think often the like ones that elicit emotion go viral and then they say, what do you know?

I want. I want more of this and they say, I want more of you, but yeah, there becomes this like, he's 

Preston: not for sale. 

Margaret: Yeah. Not like, who's paying? No. Yeah. Yeah. And I think both of, for what you guys both post, [00:49:00] I feel like before I knew either of you outside of, you know, in a one to one way, your vulnerability was the thing.

And I think humor is also vulnerable, right? Like, kind of sharing, like, these, like, imperfections, as well as your story was, I think, what made me even connect with both of you. In the beginning, right? And but then the question of, like, how do you, how do people stop asking? And how do you put up a wall, especially as it becomes your job in some way, right?

Like, I know, Amelia, you're more engaged in this and that you do, like, the groups and things like that. Preston and I are both trainees, whether we want to be or not. Uh, and. Our job is kind of set, but it's like, how much do you exchange of yourself once your work gets involved with how you get? And maybe this is less for you at this point, Amelia, but like referrals.

I know one of the things in your ethics workshop that you talked about a year ago or whatever. I think it was like a year ago, right? Maybe, um, [00:50:00] question people were asking you about was kind of marketing their private practice. Um, yeah. And that gets into a whole different kind of set of things of like, if the clients you're attracting come from who you are online and your vulnerability, your personality, how do you stop doing that?

If it's really your livelihood. 

Amelia Knott: Probably like I, I think I had the unfortunate. Privilege privilege is a weird word to use of kind of learning this lesson the hard way. I mean, and this is pre social media, but, like, the trauma I was talking about before was very publicized. Luckily, before so much of it would have been on the Internet, but as a child, my trauma story was very public in the news.

So I think I had this early experience of. Being known for something that happened to me and. Being kind of pigeonholed as brave or [00:51:00] resilient in this way. And also. Within that, because I was an adolescent, right? Learned that, okay, my worthiness. Comes from this resilience or having experienced or navigated this thing, and it was really hard to untangle that and find a different a different source of a validation and worthiness, which is why kind of in this era of of my life.

It's felt so important that. I'm known for art therapy or something that isn't something that happened to me that I had no control over. But, you know, coming back to what you said about private practice and marketing, this question came up for me because in, in grad school, I really thought, okay, grief and loss is, is the work I want to do.

It's what I'm familiar with. It's. It's a conversation that I'm really captivated by and then moving into private practice had this revelation like, Oh, actually, if I start telling my grief and trauma story, I'm [00:52:00] only going to be talking with clients about their grief and trauma. I don't know if that's sustainable for me.

I don't know if

that's the kind of work I want to do and only do.

Yeah, yeah, I, I wonder, um, I wonder how you think about 

Margaret: this for, you know, the, the average sort of person or client you're seeing or someone who's not in the social media. I like, they're not a content creator. They're not creating, but they are shaped. By this, um, like they think it's impacting their mental health in terms of like comparison or their relationship of like how things become something they can commodify, even if it's just with sharing their friend with their friends.

Um, because I think that vision isn't just happening to people whose job it is. I [00:53:00] think there's a higher intensity, but I think it also happens with like my young adult patients and my like adolescent patients and even my like postpartum patients who then start comparing themselves. Um, and what life should look like, 

Amelia Knott: right?

I think even if we're not somebody who has our livelihood, depend on our online presence, there still becomes this, like, self editing and experiencing the moments of your life through the gaze of the Internet, like thinking about the caption before, you know, as you're taking the photos, whatever is happening, right?

Like, curating your life or living it. In this disembodied way, through the anticipated lens of how somebody else would view it, interact with it, whether it's someone, you know, or someone, someone, you don't know. 

Preston: I think for me, it comes to thinking about the goal or what you're hoping to achieve. So if [00:54:00] you're living your life through.

The anticipated lens of the Internet that goal, maybe to produce entertaining content or to resonate with people. But if you if if your goal is to find validation or to find someone who you connect with, is that what your vulnerability serves to do? So, like, in a personal interaction, like, me being vulnerable, maybe like a plea for intimacy, whereas my vulnerability may be.

A way to normalize online, but it also could be a way to like advertise for myself as, as like my authenticity or something like that. So personally, when I'm trying to figure out, like, do I disclose this piece of information or do I talk about myself? Like, what, what do I accomplish? Like, what is, like, can I take a step back?

What is my goal and how does this move me either closer towards or farther away from my goal? And so I, I resonated a lot with this fear of, or not necessarily a fear, but being cognizant of the label that I'm going to get with everything I, I, um, put out, like how you're [00:55:00] describing Amelia, how, how is this going to like pin me down as how I'm viewed?

And also this other part is how do I continue on my journey of where I want to go? 

Amelia Knott: Yeah. And just to hold the other side of it to like, people's vulnerability online is life saving, right? The universality that can exist in a space. Like, like, tip talk might not compare to what is actually happening in your.

In person community, right? Had it not been for the vulnerability. Of strangers on the Internet, a lot of things in my life, I think, would feel unacceptable or wrong or abnormal. So there's there's this balance and there's no right way to, I think, find or make rules about it. I think we just have to have a continual practice of checking in with ourselves about what feels too exposing.[00:56:00] 

Where is the motivation coming from? Right? Is it. Validation or connection, that's tidy or just self interest 

Preston: and also not that they can be mutually exclusive. There is a, I don't know if you listen to the daily, but. They covered, um, breast reductions a few days ago. Very, very interesting episode. I'd recommend it.

But basically, um, there's been an increase in breast reductions and it's being driven by millennial women. And they're kind of investigating why. And one of the, like, strong reasons or things that are, like, changing this environment of, of, like, shame and beauty and how it's approached as a society is people taking to TikTok to normalize and talk about their procedures.

And people are, like, Almost like documenting like every step of the process and allowing other people to see their journey. And so it and I think the same exists for like all cosmetic procedures or a lot of them like I know hair transplants is huge right now like the amount of um, like guys that will like [00:57:00] fly to Turkey or something and then they'll like do their whole like document like every little like guys who would never do like beauty care like here's all like how my hair transplant went and every little little thing about it.

And so, I guess even for people who are trying to outside of the like therapist space or advice space and any kind of like cosmetic procedure or like challenging part of our life, shedding that spotlight on or normalizing it serves a purpose for them. 

Margaret: Well, it's an it's interesting to even think I didn't listen to the episode, but.

I listened to someone talk about it, this is all secondary, but this issue of, like, increased in breast reduction surgeries is also under the surface of it and that that podcast episode didn't mention as much, at least by this person's report, and it's often not talked about in this pop culture conversation is that insurance just wouldn't cover it 

Preston: and 

Margaret: had this view, especially when the beauty standard was that, like, having a large chest is a good thing, And in general, in medicine, not taking women's pain seriously, which is a reason that a lot of people [00:58:00] who get breast reductions is why they do it.

They mentioned that I know in the episode, but that there is certainly a population that might be doing it for aesthetics, but like, these complex social conversations that we have online and how they impact us and what kind of kaleidoscopic side of it that we see, uh, is. is just, is fascinating. And we don't know what we absorb, especially with the algorithm being so specific.

Like, you're like, I know hair, whatever, transplants are a big thing. I was not aware of that. I was unaware of that. Oh 

Preston: yeah. I imagine we're probably pitch different content, um, 

Amelia Knott: I'm also on hair transplant, tick tock and have no explanation. 

Margaret: We're the triangle of like, there's some Venn diagram happening here.

Preston: The, um, the podcast did talk about how like, it's, it's deemed as acceptable to do it for medical reasons. And the, like, people are like, Questioned more if it's for cosmetic reasons and even for other things, like people will lie and say, [00:59:00] like, Oh, I, I got a rhinoplasty because of my deviated septum and they happen to just make these cosmetic changes, but that's not the real reason why I got it.

So, I, I, I notice how the motivation for the surgery is flavored with where you're trying to get out of health or cosmetic reasons. The same applies to, like, the motivation for your vulnerability online. Two, I think like, is it for the purpose of normalizing for other people? Or I've, I've also noticed this a little bit, like people are, are vulnerable just because they think they're like, Oh, authenticity will get me attention.

So let me just like dump everything that you don't need to know about my life. And it's kind of like, Whoa, that got like really personal, really fast. And then I, I'm like, can be curious. Like, I'm wondering what this person was like hoping to accomplish by like sharing this. 

Margaret: The chapter I read in Amelia's book today literally says.

Consider why they shared that and Preston, you're just like modeling it to perfection. 

Preston: It makes me think of the [01:00:00] comments of like, people will be like, remember when we had secrets? And I'm kind of like, 

Amelia Knott: yeah. And it's interesting to think about like, okay, if we were with a client or a patient and that degree of vulnerability gets poured out, we would wonder.

And get curious in, you know, a neutral way, but like, what, what's the function of this degree of sharing? Like, what is happening in this relationship with the screen and this anonymous audience, right? Like, there's so many reasons why we might choose to share something online. It's really complicated. And I think.

You know, 1 of the ways just to tune in with ourselves is to check in about that intention. Like, what does it feel like when I receive 50 comments about how brave and strong I am when perhaps my own parents won't say that to me. Maybe there's a clue, right? Or what does it feel like to be notable or needed in a [01:01:00] community?

If that's something I don't experience in my workplace, right? And it's not to say that these things are bad excuses. It's just information and perhaps that belonging. Is really truly needed. I don't want to say it's a bad thing to get your needs for validation met on the Internet. It's so much more complicated than that, but I think the danger is when we start to feel.

Like, we owe the Internet our vulnerability or when the motivations get so confused and I mean, we've seen this. With, um, like, family bloggers, right? It gets so tangled when. your livelihood is mixed in with giving the public access to your personal life that the realm of personal and public, uh, the boundaries dissolve between them, right?

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's fascinating. I can't imagine 

Preston: crying as a kid and having my mom with a camera in my face. [01:02:00] 

Margaret: Yeah. It's definitely, I mean, Preston knows this. Obviously he had to deal with my like conniptions about this, but even when we started the podcast, I took some convincing just because like, The arena you guys are in, I think is so important and you both know that I've said it as much to both of you and the ethical gray area of sharing part of yourself online, or at what point do you have enough expertise to be a therapist online?

At what point do you let, you know, the anxiety around that, which I think is fair and has a lot of valid parts of it, but also letting that for me, at least up until this podcast kind of. Be the louder thing than the also equally true, like to hold it in both hands part that there's not enough access to mental health care that, you know, we have a lot of access and that Information that's accurate is a scarce resource, especially information that's accurate that can be communicated [01:03:00] in a way that makes people stay to listen to it.

Um, and so I think what both of you are doing is really important and it's because I know that it's possible from both of you, Amelia doesn't know this, Preston kind of knows what that's for. I think that was part of why I was like, I can do this podcast because I've seen people do it in a way that I think is helping.

Um, so I appreciate both your vulnerability and you're also continued effort for both of you, even though you're welcome. This podcast scares the shit out of me. Preston, not you. I'm just 

Preston: kidding. I'm, I'm on a strict diet of one compliment a day, Margaret. 

Margaret: Yeah, it's infesting. 

Preston: We're like blowing way over that.

Where's the 

Margaret: motivation? Yeah, I'm trying to keep your motivation internal. 

Amelia Knott: I think you touched on something so important though, because. Therapists, doctors, like regulated health professionals are in such a weird space on social media, right? Like the wellness sphere is not defined by people who [01:04:00] are beholden to a regulatory body, 

Margaret: right?

The kind of, there's this like large voice of wellness culture that's regulated by nothing. And then there's people who are actually in the field and maybe you've had a lot of schooling and all these things and that tension, 

Amelia Knott: right? So, I think the culture of how health and wellness information is shared on social media is so defined by folks who know how to hold attention because that's what the algorithm encourages, right?

So, I mean, a perfect example. I can think of every time I do a live on TikTok, I inevitably get a question about, like, I've experienced, you know, this kind of trauma. This is my diagnosis. What art project can I do? And I can't tell 

Margaret: you. You don't have like a paper mache thing that'll just fix me? Amelia, damn it.

I thought that was 10 out of 5. Like a 

Preston: flowchart? [01:05:00] 

Amelia Knott: Sorry. It's Um, listen, 

Margaret: I, you know, I went to art therapy after I started following, I told you this and it was great. She 

Amelia Knott: did 

Margaret: leave the practice honor. 

Amelia Knott: Um, 

Margaret: but yeah, so people ask you or yeah, 

Amelia Knott: people ask because 10 other influencers will say, do this project, do this journaling prompt, take the supplement and it feels.

Really good and important to be a person on the Internet who says, so I am a psychotherapist, but you're not my client. So it's super unethical and impossible for me to to say what you should do without context. Also, without the consent without the privacy and also just there's no 1 size fits all solution.

Maybe this is us coming full circle, but it's. It's challenging to be someone who, just period, it's challenging to be someone, it's 

Margaret: challenging to be 

Preston: someone, which I agree. [01:06:00] The right answer, the truest answer is often unsatisfying. People hate that. Yeah. I hate it. Right. You know, like, I'm the, I'm the expert and like.

My best answer is often, it depends. 

Amelia Knott: Yeah. Exactly. 

Preston: Like, I hate to hear that, you know? But, but if you can just be like, The, the reason why you're sad is actually your magnesium levels, And the like, You, you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, well, what a tidy, nice answer. Like, let me, let me take that off the shelf, And I can, I can ingest it.

And, and what's funny is like, These neat answers capture attention well. The true answers are unsatisfying and frustrating, And the experts understand that. And so, I think I guess I'm reflecting out loud to you guys. One way I think I've been able to like remain interesting or capture attention is by taking the audience through the journey of the nuance.

So I'll be like, here's the question, like, does, like, is my SSRI going to make my life better? Well, it depends. And here's, and like, it's frustrating. Here's why. And so now we can talk about all the social things that are contributing [01:07:00] to depression. And then also like why it might help or why it might not, but like the.

The contingent part of the part that's interesting is each little stop we make along the way on our journey to understand, not dangling this solution, uh, dangling like the carrot at the end and saying like, you just have to hold on, you just have to wait for this unsatisfying carrot at the end, but kind of like making it like little bite sized adventures, I guess.

Yeah. 

Amelia Knott: Which is so much more interesting. I mean, I get that we've all become so used to the way capitalism has digested conversations about health and wellness to being like problem, problem, solution, right? But it's, it's really lovely to reclaim the storytelling and like the art and beauty of going through each of those stops and getting to know for ourselves or through the lens of someone who's got a master's degree or more.

Um, like, what the nuance contains, there's so much richness there. And I think, [01:08:00] like, leaning into that richness is perhaps the way to survive as a content creator when you can't just tell people, this thing will solve this problem. Yeah. 

Preston: Yeah. The problem with that is it, it takes effort, it takes planning, and it takes a really strong understanding of the thing that you're discussing.

There are, there are some topics where, like, I feel like I can go through that nuance with the audience. Others are, I'm just. I. I. Like, I, I won't make a video on it because I just don't think I have the expertise because it, because to have that good nuance and to take someone on a journey, you have to have a really strong understanding.

So like, for example, I, I don't really make videos on depression very often, especially because I like to talk about like neuroscience of things because it's just so complicated and like, I don't know how I can like make this digestible because like I have trouble understanding depression. And. So, like, other things that may have, like, more neat answers, I'll do, but then I, I won't, I guess that's the other point, is, like, selecting what, [01:09:00] what can be condensed into content, what can't be condensed into content, and I won't take on these, like, super complex topics, rather than do them an injustice by attempting to make them palatable, and then almost causing more damage.

Amelia Knott: Oh, but it's so challenging because so many people will people with that breadth of understanding will approach a topic without perhaps being prepared to do it justice and then the content about that issue is created by someone with perhaps a less thorough or 

Margaret: peaceful understanding. Either die with nuance or you start selling a supplement.

That's how it goes. Yeah. I think the other thing I think about with this and part of the non anxiety part of me that doesn't lean into the online, like I'm a clinician, but part of it is because it came out of intern year me wanting to express creativity and artsy ness and lifestyle y things that I thought were fun that I didn't talk about as a doctor.[01:10:00] 

Is there something I worry about is like, I don't know who's watching this. So there's like, is the information correct for them? Because it's like when we talk about like personality traits, like if you are someone who's super anxious, maybe we need to work on the things you're avoiding. But if you're someone who has struggles with self compassion and you force yourself to be rigidly adherent to everything all the time, you don't need the advice to be more like.

Disciplined or what? I would never say that anyway, but you know what I mean? Like where you are is so important to what direction I would point you in. Um, but the other thing outside of the context of that is that there is this history of hierarchy and the mental health professions that if I say I'm a psychiatrist at bada, bada, bada, right?

Like, can someone pick that up with autonomy? Like, can they pick it up and look at it the way the validity it should or shouldn't have and, and rather than. Or are they going to see their psychiatrist at whatever, [01:11:00] I'm going to just automatically take this in and that like the, the kind of automatic assumption there.

And that's part of why I write about things that are tangentially related to mental health on TikTok, as, as Amelia knows, but it's very much offered as like, I'm just a person in the world. Here are some ideas, but they're often most reflective of, like, they're a metabolized version of whatever I'm learning in psychiatry residency.

Often it's like, what I'm writing about is what's on my mind. But this question, I wonder how you guys think about this is like, can people like, do you worry about that? That people are just going to take it. because you're someone who has academic or whatever has power in society and they're just going to automatically trust you.

I know often people don't trust us now, but which like fair, um, but. 

Preston: So I think what you're describing is the argument of authority. 

Margaret: I'm describing. That people are going to give you authority automatically based on your role and based on where you sit in society and therefore they may take in, [01:12:00] I worry about this with my patients in real life to real life in clinic too, that the force of the position of the hierarchy that you're at, the context you're located in sometimes can give you a violence that you're not aware of, even if you're not trying to do that because people think that they should not say no, they shouldn't speak up to you depending on their experience of authority and power and how long they've been on a wait list.

Okay. Um, yeah. So even if you're trying to 

Preston: say, listen to me with scrutiny and like, evaluate this with your own autonomy, like you said, or with logic, they may just see your credentials and that's enough. Um, I think people are in 

Margaret: pain, right? Yeah. 

Preston: I think you have a, um, I think we live on a spectrum, all three of us.

And We're even on the kind of like one end of it. So I think Margaret's on the furthest away, which is I'm an anonymous person. I don't even show my face. I'm, I'm just a girl. It seems to be like your approach who just has some, some words and some thoughts about things. I'm pretty open that I'm a [01:13:00] psychiatrist or a psychiatry resident, but I purposely don't say like I'm Preston the psych MD.

Like, I, I don't want people to be coming to my page already thinking about, like, how credible I am or all these things. And so when I do talk about mental health, I hope that, like, the way my dialogue or like, or like my didactic approach is enough to capture attention and also have enough reason behind it that that's what gives me, like, the credibility and I'm not trying to go out in front of it.

And then I think there's, uh, like Amelia is like one, like little step ahead of that, which is like art therapy. Is in your name and so that's that expands a little bit even more, but then there's people like way out there that are like the you could say like the psych guru dot five or something and then like their whole page is like starts out with like, you know, like that YouTube accent like.

Hey guys, five, like I'm, I'm so and so the Psych Guru MD. Five things you didn't know that could be affecting your cholesterol. Here's what psychiatrists don't want [01:14:00] you to know. Yeah. Don't, yeah. 

Margaret: Five things I would never do. And then they point and they dance to Say So by Doja Cat. Yeah, 

Preston: yeah, exactly. So we like, we all kind of like live on this spectrum of like identity and authority.

What do you think about that? And I don't know. I guess I found more comfortable with like. I'm not going to hide who I am, but I'm also not going to try to advertise it, I guess. That's, I guess that's where pressing landed. 

Amelia Knott: I guess where I land is, people don't know that art therapy is a real thing. That's, that's true.

So I feel like, when it comes to like, authority and hierarchy, I'm in this weird balancing act because It's not really well known that to be an art therapist in Canada and the U. S., you need a master's degree. You need to belong to the Canadian or American Art Therapy Association. It is training akin to becoming a counselor or a psychotherapist.

So I feel like I kind of come from this [01:15:00] defensive stance very often of wanting people to understand, like, no, no, no, I'm, I'm a real clinician. I'm not the person who brings arts and crafts. I can do that. And I have a clinical set of experience, or I have, I have a set of experiences that are, um, are really valid.

And my perspective is informed by The education I have that 1 side and hit the other side of that coming back to this conversation about what it means to be client centered is things like, you know, I'm not going to interpret your artwork for you. I'm not going to. necessarily give you a specific art project to do.

I mean, I know that's something that people wouldn't see if they were familiar with the kinds of things I post online, but in a one on one client relationship, I'm really hesitant to give someone a step by step process because it's so much more empowering for them to design it themselves. [01:16:00] And I mean, I think it's also the book speaks to that, right?

I feel hesitant to step into the role of expert. It's a funny place to be. I have expertise Personally, professionally, and I'm not the expert to anybody holding that is hard. 

Margaret: And there's then there's this question of the larger health system of, does it matter that we protect our patients from snake oil sales salesmen, you know, like, where is our I don't mean this in a bad way.

I feel like I have a background in theology and ethics. So I speak this way, but like, you know, at what point do we say, maybe I need to speak with less nuance in a way that is more palatable to protect against something. I mean, this sounds like, like, I don't think any single person has that responsibility, but I think there's been a lot of hesitancy, um, Especially in research and academics to [01:17:00] I think part of its anxiety and not knowing about the online space, but like, how do you engage the people who you're trying to help?

And then how do you be in the public forum? Um. 

Preston: Nuance and digestibility of content are often anti correlated, unfortunately. 

Margaret: Right. But that's what I'm saying. But there 

Preston: exists this like inflection point, I think. 

Margaret: Right. But so there's like an almost like a looking reality in the face and saying. Here's what's actually happening, though.

Sure, in a world, I would love to be a purist and only speak to the most nuanced thing that I know, um, but none of us do that every day. None of us in our 20 minute, like precedent, our 20 minute med check visits. I'm not like actually going into like, and here's all the nuance of an SSRI that we do know or don't know.

And maybe some people think we know it, that there's these ethical, you have to wait, like ethics is truly weighing two goods and picking which one in the context is important to your values and to the values you want to help propagate in society. And [01:18:00] so sometimes being online means like making something catchy and easier to digest and maybe leaning in in some way to part of something you don't like, which is being like, here's five ways that this works.

Like how much have people gotten from that? Probably a lot. 

Amelia Knott: I think about, like, if I was my most ethical self, and self, or I could exist on that binary and do it ethically, every video, every video would start with the disclaimer of the fact that while I'm an art therapist, this video doesn't constitute art therapy, because it's not a clinical relationship, like, I could talk for two hours about, like, the risks, or, now that the preamble is done, 

[music]: yeah, 

Amelia Knott: yeah, and then, But, you know, instead, I'm also thinking about like, okay, two seconds, realistically, to tell someone what they're going to get from this video.

More good is done by saying, here's an art process about this kind of thing. And then also having a disclaimer somewhere else for people to find, but it's, it's imperfect, [01:19:00] right? I do feel uneasy about the fact that say, sometimes people comment like, oh, I went and did art therapy by myself this week. Or, you know, I took your art therapy prompts and did art therapy with myself.

And it's not as useful for me to get kind of on my high horse and remind people like, oh, That's actually not art therapy because, you know, whatever, I don't want to say whatever because it is really important to me. And I think I could get caught in the red tape and the gatekeeping so much so that nothing went online and these ideas didn't make it out into the world.

Preston: And now we're back to square one. 

Amelia Knott: Which is where I was 

Margaret: before we started the podcast and pressed and forced my hand. Yeah. I mean, I think we could talk about this. On and on. I think it's such a fascinating conversation. Um, maybe a place for us to end is what your hopes are for your, you know, maybe in like a sentence, which I know is awful and horrible and very 2 second attention span of me.[01:20:00] 

Um, where you hope your relationship a year from now with your screens and online presence, um, How you hope it's changed in the past year, or how 

Amelia Knott: it's a minute. 49. To hear the answer. No, no, I'm sure you 

Preston: won't. You won't believe what Amelia says about her relationship with the behind 

Amelia Knott: the pay wall after the round for answer number 3.

No, it's a beautiful question. What do I hope my relationship with social media looks like in a year? 

Margaret: Yeah, the trajectory it it's gone in. 

Amelia Knott: I mean, what, what is so interesting about my own journey is that I haven't fixed my relationship with social media, right? I. And if I can be transparent and vulnerable, you know, the year or the 2 years of writing the book, it was very kind of immersed in the ideas and still doing it and perfectly still had, you know, more screen time than I was comfortable with.

And then the [01:21:00] process of completing the book, and the burnout of that layered in with just, you know. The things life threw at me this year, I was evacuated for wildfires this summer and took stress leave at 1 point. It's been a challenging year. And my screen time has never been higher. Like, I've been grappling with promoting a book about tending to your relationship with social media.

When, frankly, my relationship with social media has never been worse. Which feels so weird, but also But also perfect, because the point isn't to find the habit or the hack that works forever. 

Preston: Or for you to be the paragon at all times. Right. 

Amelia Knott: Yes. Oh my gosh. The pressure of that. What I do notice is You are my guru though.

Sorry. But you're my guru. You started cult, I'm there, Amelia. But what is different than say, how I was in my relationship with social media five years ago, is that I think I feel a lot less shame. [01:22:00] I feel less, like, I've let myself down, even though I might have had, like, 5 hours of screen time yesterday.

It's often more, right? The, the how I talk to myself is the piece that's different. So my hope, I guess, is moving out of this challenging era of life, like, a year from now, I hope to Continue with that thread of, of self compassion and empathy and start to have some of the bandwidth to turn to my offline habits to to build my attention span.

Like, I think I'm on day 2 of writing in the morning before looking at a screen. You know, I will restart that process over and over again, but I hope a year from now. I'm still in conversation with myself. Maybe that's all I want to say. I hope you guys know I'm still in conversation with myself. 

Preston: That conversation probably never ends.

So [01:23:00] we can just, we, we can hope it, it takes corners that we wanted to and then the subjects will meander. But 

Margaret: yeah, no, I think that's a beautiful answer. And I think, I think it's very, you know, as is apt for, for any good therapist or therapy process based. 

Preston: I thought it was good content. 

Margaret: He's going to get you, hit you with the like and repost.

It came from a good content creator. Okay. Well, I mean, it's been lovely to have you on. Um, I don't know if you want to say where people can find you online, find your book, um, or where to connect with your other offerings that you'd like to kind of give people a chance to connect with you besides here.

If this is the first time they're meeting you in the Internet. 

Amelia Knott: Yeah, absolutely. What's your home address? Preston. Social security 

Margaret: number? 

[music]: He's 

Margaret: like, I'm outside your house right now with my 

Amelia Knott: camera. You won't find me. I'm deep in the woods of British Columbia. Do not challenge him like that.[01:24:00] 

My book is The Art of Thriving Online, and you can find it wherever you buy books. Margaret's holding it up. It's also available in audio and e book formats, depending on how you like to consume information. We really worked hard to make sure the audio version didn't seem like a lesser version. So a lot of the prompts have been adapted to be about speaking and sound, which I feel really proud of.

But you can find that All the places you can normally find books and if you want to just, like, hang out together on the internet, I'm arttherapyirl on Instagram and TikTok. And yeah, I often post videos of art projects that may or may not be helpful to you, depending on what's going on in your life. But if you're curious about art therapy, that's where you can find me.

Margaret: Well, thank you so much for coming on. Um, Preston, I think, I think it's your time to read the part that I never read. 

Preston: It's that time. [01:25:00] It's that time. So, um, Amelia, you get to hang out for our favorite part of the show, which is when we do the outro. Thank you so much for listening. Let us know what you thought of the show and how you like this style of episode.

I really enjoy bringing on these experts to talk about some of their latest works. And also these approaches of therapy from a different perspective, because there are a million ways that you can. Dice a carrot. And I always like to hear new ways, whether it's the medium of art or, or paper mache. So come chat with us, share your thoughts at the human podcast family on IG at human content pods, or you can contact the team directly at how to be patient pod.

com. Shout out to all the listeners, leaving all the kind feedback in the awesome reviews. And anyone who's sending in your art projects after this, you can either send it to us or art therapy in real in RL. You know, I wanna judge you. You send it to me. My name is Bad Art. Every day I put it on my fridge.

I'm not kidding. I, I do wanna see your art projects. If you wanna watch Statue Badge , if you wanna watch the videos on YouTube, [01:26:00] they'll be on my channel. At is Pre is it's Prera and Bad Art Every Day. Doesn't have a YouTube channel yet, but I'll probably cajole her to make you want . Thanks again for listening.

We're your hosts, Preston Roche. Margaret Duncan. Our executive producers are me, Preston Roche and Margaret Duncan, Will Flannery, Kristen Flannery, Aaron Korny, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor and engineer is Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Benz V. Check out our show notes to see the references and resources we used to discuss in this episode.

To learn more about our program, discipliner and ethics policy, submission, verification, and licensing terms and our HIPAA release terms. Go to our website, how to be patient pod.com or reach out to us at how to be patient@humancontent.com with any questions or concerns. How to be patient is a human content production.[01:27:00] 

Thank you for watching. If you wanna see more of us or if you wanna see, this is Lilac. She's my cat. She's gonna be waving her hand at one of the floating boxes, which will lead to more episodes. Lilac Point to the other episodes. Lilac doesn't know what the internet is, but I swear they're there. They, they probably exist for real, but in the meantime, I'm just gonna pet lilac and then.

I'm gonna go dance in the [01:28:00] background.